Air India 787 down

[3WE]

Dan JUAN says you can hear the RAT.

***THEREFORE***

One might suspect a power loss.

Linkage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPk31EhtakE

[elaw]

This seems to agree (but no source given): https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... zm0/ai171/

[3WE]

The OP on Eric’s link is gone.

Apologies: We should wait for the hopefully soon-to-be-released report on the recorders, which we would THINK would be VERY useful.

[Not_Karl]

This seems to agree (but no source given): https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... zm0/ai171/

Gone.
Was it a "preliminary report" mentioning uncommanded displacement of the captain's seat? If it was that, it's fake.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today's update in AvHerald about altitude:

In the last ADS-B position the aircraft had climbed to about 625 feet MSL according to Standard Pressure (compensated for ambient pressure that would be about about 264 feet MSL or 75 feet AGL) at 174 knots over ground.

[elaw]

Yeah sorry about that... it sounds like the info I linked above may have been bogus.

Basically they were claiming that due to some very weird/specific electrical failure, power was lost to both engine computers simultaneously, which resulted in a total loss of thrust from both engines.

[Verbal]

Boeing 787's Emergency-Power System Likely Active Before Air India Crash
The Wall Street Journal 06/18/2025
Author: Andrew Tangel and Shan Li

Investigators believe Air India Flight 171 had an emergency-power generator operating when it crashed last week, raising questions about whether the plane's engines functioned properly during takeoff.

The preliminary finding, according to people familiar with the probe, gives investigators a new line of inquiry as they study a crash that killed all but one of the plane's passengers. In all, at least 270 people died following the crash, including some on the ground in the western Indian city of Ahmedabad.

The emergency system is known as a ram air turbine. It is a small propeller that drops from the bottom of the 787 Dreamliner's fuselage to serve as a backup generator.

Engines normally produce electricity for an aircraft and help run its flight-control systems. The power generated by the RAT can enable crucial aircraft components to function.

The system can deploy automatically in flight if both engines have failed or if all three hydraulic system pressures are low, according to an airline's Boeing 787 manual reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. It can also deploy if cockpit instruments lose power or problems emerge with the aircraft's electric motor pumps.

Pilots can manually deploy the RAT if needed. The most common occurrence is when a pilot thinks that both engines failed, according to Anthony Brickhouse, a U.S.-based aerospace safety consultant. Engine failures can result from a variety of causes, including bird strikes or problems with fuel.

"In commercial aviation, a dual engine failure is extremely rare," he added. "Our engines today are more efficient and reliable than ever."

Plane manufacturer Boeing and engine maker GE Aerospace declined to comment.

The Air India flight reached an altitude of 625 feet in clear conditions before it stopped transmitting location data, just 50 seconds into the flight, according to Flightradar24. Efforts to contact the cockpit after it issued a mayday call drew no response.

One focus of the crash investigation has been whether the plane suffered a loss or reduction of thrust, the Journal previously reported.

And despite investigators' early finding about the RAT, the people familiar with the crash cautioned that the probe is ongoing. Investigators haven't confirmed whether engine, hydraulic or other problems triggered the emergency system.

Findings from the wreckage indicate the aircraft's flaps and other flight-control surfaces had been configured for takeoff, some of the people said.

India's Ministry of Civil Aviation said the accident remains under investigation and that more information would be provided in due course. Air-accident investigations can last a year or more and often point to a number of factors contributing to a crash, such as possible maintenance errors, crew missteps or design flaws.

It wasn't immediately clear whether investigators had begun analyzing information gleaned from the aircraft's black boxes, which record flight data and voices and other sounds from the cockpit.

The Air India crash was the first fatal incident for the 787 Dreamliner, which entered service in 2011. Like other modern aircraft, it is equipped with advanced safety systems that can aid pilots in emergencies.

The lone survivor, Viswashkumar Ramesh, had a window seat in an exit row near the front of the plane. In an interview with India's public broadcaster, the British national described a moment after takeoff when the plane seemed to freeze in midair for a few seconds. Then green and white lights came on in the cabin, before the plane slammed into a dormitory for medical-school students.

Ramesh made it out of an emergency exit before the plane exploded into a massive fireball.

"Still I don't know how I survived," he said.

[elaw]

Possibly of interest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MDjRMkc-cc

[3WE]

WSJ says the RAT may have deployed, indicating a possible loss of power.

[Not_Karl]

AvieHeraldie's june 20th update:

On Jun 20th 2025 government officials stated, that India's AAIB is currently looking into another case of dual engine problems with an A321 that happened in London Gatwick in 2020, see: Incident: Titan A321 at London on Feb 26th 2020, left engine surged, engine stall indications for right engine, that was caused by fuel contamination (Not_Karlie's note: excessive biocide in fuel). It appears on preliminary findings, that there was no error in the cockpit, it appears that as soon as the flight became airborne the power failure occurred leaving the aircraft unable to climb to a safe altitude.

Of course, we are Not_told if they're looking into that incident simply for being a quasi-dual engine failure on take-off or if they have other reasons to link it to the Air India crash.
Also note, regarding the "it appears..." part, that the black boxes have not yet been read (despite what Argie AI-"enhanced" media might make you think).

[3WE]

Someone there said so.

If it’s true, I’d say it’s pretty interesting…no strong clues…a small bomb, micrometeoroid, trying to find something broken, PFs chair full back…

[monchavo]

What is the latest thinking on this terrible event?

[elaw]

I can't remember which but one Internet pontificator thinks it's a single-engine failure (cause unknown but probably squids) and the pilots shut down the good engine.

A "pro" of that theory: it's happened before, a bunch of times.

To me the biggest con: it means one engine would have lost power before the other, which you think would result in the aeroplanie yawing... which it doesn't seem to in the video.

There's one thing that I haven't seen discussed that could easily result in a loss of power on both engines: a human hand pulling the power levers to idle (or flipping the cutoff switches).

[3WE]

[Ericie]

1. single-engine failure (cause unknown but probably squids) and the pilots shut down the good engine.

2. "pro"

3. con:

4. There's one thing that I haven't seen discussed that could easily result in a loss of power on both engines: a human hand pulling the power levers to idle (or flipping the cutoff switches).

1-3. Strongly concur.. Minimal yaw, no smoke from an engine (not that it’s required, BUT), procedures are to not immediately mess with a dead engine.

4. I’m greatly offended, except for the italics. . The topic has been suggested a time or two, by a crazy poster known as 3BS, and another person or two. I ass-ume that sort of thing would show on the FDR. I have also done it on MSFS playing the “land straight ahead” game (not in a 787, but)….The experience is very much what we see.

[flyboy2548m]

I can't remember which but one Internet pontificator thinks it's a single-engine failure (cause unknown but probably squids) and the pilots shut down the good engine.

Happened too soon. Nobody should be touching anything that early on.

[3WE]

Happened too soon. Nobody should be touching anything that early on.

Since when do your stupid cowboy colleagues follow procedures? (Sorry, I had to play the Schmo card).

It is; however, more likely than a perfectly-wrong micro meteor strike.

Do you give a deliberate shutdown some realistic odds?

[Verbal]

What is the latest thinking on this terrible event?

Yes.

[flyboy2548m]

Do you give a deliberate shutdown some realistic odds?

No.

[elaw]

So to summarize what we've learned so far:

• It appears both engines shut down at (about) exactly the same moment.
• The likelihood of both engines shutting down unintentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.
• The likelihood of both engines being shut down intentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.

Well I'm glad we got that settled!

[3WE]

[Eric paradoxical summary statements]

A micrometeorite could do it.

OR

Squid software sabotage.

[Gabriel]

So to summarize what we've learned so far:

• It appears both engines shut down at (about) exactly the same moment.
• The likelihood of both engines shutting down unintentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.
• The likelihood of both engines being shut down intentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.

Well, the 787 completed 5 millions safe flights, with zero fatalities and zero hull losses until this accident.
1 in 5 millions is approximately zero.

[3WE]

[Eric paradoxical summary statements]

I thought about fuel contamination…you accelerate and pitch up and a slug of water or something gets sucked up…still, simultaneously at a perfectly wrong time?

Pushing some cryptically-abbreviated descend-button on Otto wouldn’t deploy the RAT, and I’d HOPE someone would grab that half-handful of levers…(same story on the seat sliding back. No RAT).

[Verbal]

One might surmise that the RAT deployed automatically when the airplane's systems detected that there was insufficient power being generated from the engines. Hope this helps.

[Not_Karl]

Latest AvieHeraldie update:

On Jun 26th 2025 India's Civil Aviation Minister said, that the first black box was retrieved on Jun 13th 2025, the second on Jun 16th 2025. Both boxes were separately taken to Delhi with full security on Jun 24th 2025, the data have been successfully downloaded in the presence of AAIB and NTSB on Jun 25th 2025. The analysis of the data is underway.

[monchavo]

So to summarize what we've learned so far:

• It appears both engines shut down at (about) exactly the same moment.
• The likelihood of both engines shutting down unintentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.
• The likelihood of both engines being shut down intentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.

Well I'm glad we got that settled!

I know this is a shitposting forum in general, but this is the conundrum that has been baffling me. This is exactly how I am handling it in my head - let's see what comes out of the FDR!

[3WE]

So to summarize what we've learned so far:

• It appears both engines shut down at (about) exactly the same moment.
• The likelihood of both engines shutting down unintentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.
• The likelihood of both engines being shut down intentionally at exactly the same moment is approximately zero.

Well I'm glad we got that settled!

I know this is a shitposting forum in general, but this is the conundrum that has been baffling me. This is exactly how I am handling it in my head - let's see what comes out of the FDR!

Sorry flyboy, and Monchie, I’ve seen YouTubes of how guys flip up guard covers and push fuel cutoff buttons…nice, quick simultaneous shutdown of the engines with no smoke, parts being flung…

That, or the squid put a virus in a computer module.

The probability of a crash is close to zero, too, so put that as the denominator and the probabilities of lots of stuff (including micro meteorites) increases many fold.

But, Indeed, the probability of recorders being useful (and available somewhat soon) is high…although that 737 bird strike crash was creepy.